Politics is Wrestling w/Josephine Riesman

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Bugs. Ella, flash me. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Ella, check this out. I hate this so much. Yeah, yeah, that's Loki on a magic [00:00:14] Speaker A: card that I picked the worst time to grab a sip of water. That is. That is Loki on a magic card called propaganda. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Which feels kind of relevant to today's topic, so. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Irrelevant. [00:00:30] Speaker C: Yeah, Politics. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Politics tends to involve a little bit of propaganda. And if you take a propaganda this card, vote Loki dog Believe. [00:00:40] Speaker A: And I love. Okay, all right. Now this is. This is so Midwest emo of me. But I do love how his horns highlight that. That the best part of Believe is in fact, the lie. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah, it's good art on a magic card. Like, for what it's worth, this is very well rendered Loki propaganda. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Posters and creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays two for each creature they control. So you have to pay a toll. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah, you have to. You have to pay the troll toll to get in this boy's hole. [00:01:11] Speaker A: This is the most politics card I've ever seen. How do you keep doing this, Bugs? You keep just. It's. It's. It. You find the most. You literally have cardboard for everything. [00:01:21] Speaker B: I unfortunately have cardboard for everything, though, like that. My brain is 82% cardboard by volume [00:01:29] Speaker A: and my brain is 82% wrestling by volume. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Together we fight crime. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Together we. We fight crime and we do the show. Hit the button. [00:01:58] Speaker B: Smash that, like, button. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Woo. We're here. Hello, Ella Taylor again. We are back with more Everything is wrestling. Which, you know, is. It's a fun little conceit, but really it's just we. We talk to our. Our experty type friends and make gay jokes. And by we, I mean my co host and good, good buddy friend, Bugs. Bugs Matrix. Say hi, Bugs. [00:02:22] Speaker B: Hi, Bugs. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Yay, Bugs. Today we have kind of very much sort of the seed of this theory of everything. If you. [00:02:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:40] Speaker A: This conversation is also kind of part of why I got into podcasting in general. Because I was like, I would just love to sit down with this person and talk about this someday, and it's taken many years. In the meantime, they are my client, boss and. And on the buddy. So we have the woman who wrote the book on this, Josephine Reisman. Hello. Welcome. Hello. [00:03:07] Speaker C: That was so flattering. I wasn't expecting to get all teary eyed. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:03:14] Speaker C: Oh. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Oh, buddy. Oh, it's gonna get worse. Well, like, so, yeah, we're talking about how politics is wrestling. You have a bit of. Of history in this subject, I'd say. [00:03:28] Speaker C: I do. I'm like, I feel like, outdated in my expertise because I You know, for the listeners who don't know, I wrote a book that came out in 2023 called ringmaster Vince McMahon and the unmaking of America, which is a biography of wrestling Emperor Vince McMahon, but also was very much a politics book masquerading as just a biography where I was talking about how kayfabe had always been part of politics, and that the kind of kayfabe that Vince McMahon didn't invent but sort of enshrined, which I coined the term neo kayfabe for, has now infected contemporary politics like very recent politics, to great detriment to all. So I wrote that, but I feel a little out of date because that came out in 2023, and. And by the time it came out, I was already out of date. I'd already had a God goddamn book contract for my third book, which is now coming out this fall, which has nothing to do with any of this. It is a politics book in some ways, but it is not. [00:04:31] Speaker A: You should tell people what it is because. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Yeah, okay, so I'll plug it right now and then we can talk about again at the end. But I have a biography of the musician Beck coming out. That book is called the Last Temptation of Becky Colon, the Untold Story of a Pop Messiah. It's coming out with Simon and Schuster's atria imprint on November 17, two months after Beck puts out his second or first album. Two months after Beck puts out his first album in seven years. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Holy. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Seven years. Holy. [00:05:03] Speaker C: It's been seven years since he's put out an album. Since Hyperspace, which nobody really paid attention to. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:08] Speaker C: Largely because it came out, like, right before the Pandemic hit. And, yeah, timing in general, but, yeah, new albums coming out. Ride lonesome on September 18th, and then almost exactly two months later, on November 17th, my book comes out. So. [00:05:22] Speaker A: So did you. Did you have to call him and be like, can we, like, orchestrate this? Can my people work? [00:05:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I have nothing to do with that. I have no comments, but most importantly, no contact. I have no idea whether there was. I have no idea if my book played any role in the timing of that album announcement which just happened. The announcement. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Oh, wow. That's amazing. I was joking, but that's kind of cool. [00:05:49] Speaker B: That's insane timing. That's so cool. [00:05:51] Speaker C: They could have had. They could have released it anytime. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:55] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not proposing a theory. This is. People have made this joke to me, and I'm like, well, for all I know, it's accurate. Like, it's. The book is an unauthorized biography. It is not a book where Beck had any say in what was in the book, nor did he respond to my extensive attempts to comment from him. Although I did interview him for MTV exactly 20 years prior to the release of this book, almost down to the week, because I won a contest that MTV's college station MTVU was running. So that, to date, is the only interview I've done with Beck. But I talked to a lot of people who knew Beck. A lot of people. [00:06:35] Speaker A: So, Josie, Josie, if I've told you lately, you're, like, one of the coolest [00:06:39] Speaker C: people I know, genuinely. [00:06:42] Speaker A: And I know, like, I know so many cool people, dude. Like. Like. Like. Not to, like, knock it down a peg, but, like, it's weird. I somehow know a lot of cool people. You're up there. [00:06:53] Speaker C: I know you do. [00:06:55] Speaker A: It's weird. It's strange. [00:06:56] Speaker C: Well, it's very sweet of you. Thank you. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. And ever. I don't. I don't know about y', all, but my. My body's ready for this. This back book. [00:07:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Back book. Yeah. If you want to get it, get it. Pre order in, listeners. Backbook.com. very easy to remember. Backbook.com is the URL where you can find out how to pre order. [00:07:18] Speaker A: So, Bugs, because I'm a producer at heart, I think I heard you Yelp something. Did you have something to add? [00:07:26] Speaker B: No, I'm just. I. I love Beck, so I'm very stoked for that. [00:07:31] Speaker C: It's gonna be really cool. It's. I don't wanna. I don't want to give anything away because it's. Let me put it this way. The last books I wrote, I'm very proud of, but a lot of it was collating information people already had reported and presenting it in a new way with a new spin. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Both. [00:07:48] Speaker C: My first book, True Believer, which was about Stan Lee of Marvel Comics, then Ringmaster, both of them were. There was definitely stuff I found out that no one knew, but a lot of it was like, well, I can't really dig new ground here because it's already been so dug. I just have to come up with a good spin on the stuff or an interesting spin on what's already been done. The back book. Trust nothing you've read before about Beck is all I will say. [00:08:13] Speaker A: Holy hell. Well, all right. [00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:16] Speaker C: It's a very. It's a very much an. I didn't say the untold story of a Pop Messiah for no reason. There's. It's pretty much all stuff that has not been reported before. I mean, there's like connective tissue of things that have been reported. Like. Right, like. Or whatever. But even there, I have bat behind the scenes stuff from Lollapalooza that'll blow your mind. So any. [00:08:39] Speaker A: That's so sick. Awesome. Yeah. [00:08:41] Speaker B: So excited. [00:08:42] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Hell yeah. [00:08:44] Speaker C: I'm very excited for it to be out there in the world, but. Yes. But before that, I wrote the Vince McMahon book, so I will try. I am not up to date on wrestling lately. I have not been watching AW or WWE or indie anything. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:57] Speaker C: Closest I come to it is like, just being on Blue sky in general. Like, you. You. [00:09:03] Speaker A: You're bringing it in. [00:09:04] Speaker C: Yeah. There's a fair amount of AEW memory that just always comes trickling through on Blue Sky. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:10] Speaker C: Wwe not so much anymore. I was watching WWE pretty consistently up until Jesus, till like late 2024 or something. And then I was just like, why am I watching this now? [00:09:22] Speaker A: That's about when I fell off too. That's where I was just like, I can't just. I just can't do it. [00:09:27] Speaker C: There was a period in like 2023, 24, when it seemed like they were maybe turning things around weirdly. And then. I don't even want to comment on that so much. [00:09:37] Speaker A: The Sami Zayn bloodline stuff got my. My family at the time, you know, no longer together now. But like, that's like, what got, you know, Kiddo into wrestling was like, starting to watch along with me when I was paying attention to that. [00:09:55] Speaker C: Right. [00:09:56] Speaker A: He loves Oscar. Because, of course, who wouldn't love Oscar? [00:10:00] Speaker C: There was a great stable. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. But it was. It got to the point where I just. I can't. I mean, I stopped. That's why I stopped doing the Monday. It's part of why I stopped doing the Monday night show. Because, you know, the first thing. The first time I tried to have this conversation with you, I was still doing the Monday Night wars rewatch and I'd saved the. The Scott hall coming out episode for you, but that's how I found out that you were moving. Because you're like, I can't. Right. [00:10:30] Speaker C: But sorry about that, but I gotta. I gotta move to Portugal. Right? Yeah. I fled. I fled the. The country and live in. In Portugal now. [00:10:42] Speaker A: I refer to you. I refer to you now as America's greatest export. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. I hope to not be a permanent export. I'm sort of seeing how the midterms [00:10:52] Speaker A: go, but riding Out. [00:10:55] Speaker C: I moved here because it felt unsafe. And I think a lot of my feeling of unsafety came out of having researched for Ringmaster. I just sort of saw the. A lot of the underbelly of what makes America work, you know, And I kept telling you it was so funny when I would do interviews in the couple years after Ringmaster came out. Like, it comes out in whatever is March 23rd, and the paperback came out in March 24th. And around then was also when Vince was getting forced out of the company. So people kept asking me about it. The first time, right? No, the second time, that was when he was like, actually really ousted. And so I was getting interviewed a lot. But the point is to remember is this is 23 and 24. And I'm saying, like, early 24, because January is when he gets ousted. And every time I got interviewed, people would be like, so you think this is the end of Vince McMahon? And I'd be like, well, I think this does not help his criminal, you know, the DOJ case against him. Like, I think that's. I mean, it helps the DOJ case against him, doesn't help him in his fight against the DOJ. But if Donald Trump wins in November of 2024, then that becomes completely irrelevant because there's no DOJ that's going to prosecute him. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:13] Speaker C: And literally, people would laugh. They would laugh. And I'm like, you serious? Like, we already did this once. You're laughing at the idea of him becoming president again. And sure freaking enough. Here we are. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And it's. Oh, my God, that. [00:12:30] Speaker C: That. [00:12:30] Speaker A: That hits so many things that I was already going to talk. Ask you about. So that's so sick. But because, like, exact. Just exactly that ex. All of that. And. And the fact that, like, I. Because this is. It's a great transition into. What I wanted to kind of start the conversation with too, is how I met you, which is the fact that I discovered I put all this together from first principles. And I was hanging out on Twitter. I was getting back into wrestling. I was getting back into wrestling for the first time in. Because of COVID In the process, transferring my gender. Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker C: Many others, really. Cooking. WWE was doing that weird silent stuff. There was a lot happening during early. [00:13:15] Speaker A: It took it. It took a while for me to get to. Aw. But yeah, my whole thing was I went back and watched the 20 years that I had skipped of. Of pay per views because they're all. Yeah. So I caught up and I was like, jesus Christ. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Good stuff. At that 20 years. [00:13:30] Speaker A: There was some really good. And there was also some wild real misses. [00:13:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:36] Speaker A: I want that we got. God is wrestling will happen bugs. [00:13:41] Speaker C: And I think I. I was actually gonna say that's a. That is both. Somehow both the highlight and the low light of the entire thing, you know, [00:13:49] Speaker A: because, you know, I'm not. I'm gonna save it for the listeners, but I love Josie that you knew exactly what I was talking about. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we. I will share that story when we get to it. Yeah. Because so, like. Yeah, so I'm watching this. I'm going. You know, everyone talks about, like, both sides are the same, and I'm like, that's not really true. But, you know, in politics. But also, it is. And the way I would try, as I was getting more. I mean, I was at that, like, during Trump's first term and all that, like, I kind. I was. I was very much almost like a shit lib because I was getting back into caring again because I was, you know, didn't have to for the longest time. Yay. White male privilege, you know. Yeah, right, right, right. Except for the whole closet thing. Yeah. But, yeah, so, like. Yeah, so, like, I'm putting, like, watching all this and, like, kind of like putting it all together and going like, you know, I hate that. Politics is just like, wrestling, and whether you're a good guy or the bad guy, in the end, somehow Vince McMahon's making me. [00:15:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that. [00:15:01] Speaker A: And that's how I would put it to people. And I. I tweeted that out one day, and they're like, oh, like Josie's book. [00:15:12] Speaker C: And now the. [00:15:12] Speaker A: A Josie. Like, what were you talking about? [00:15:16] Speaker C: I forgot that was how that happened. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's someone like. Yeah, that was like, holy. Like, oh, my God, I gotta check this out. And then, you know, the rest. [00:15:25] Speaker C: That wasn't even that long ago. My God. [00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. That was. Right. That was like, a little bit before I. Blue sky became an option. That was over on Twitter. [00:15:35] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:15:36] Speaker A: That's, like early 23. [00:15:38] Speaker C: Yeah. And, yeah, I, like, barely transitioned at that point. I y. I like, this is. That's crazy. Wow. [00:15:46] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's how I discovered you, even. And. And, like, all this. So then I read, you know. Well, listen to the book. Read the book. I was like, ah, yeah, that's it. That's all of it. Cool. Well, Josie did it. [00:15:57] Speaker C: Cool. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:58] Speaker A: I was like, sweet. I'll have to dig into that. Ain't for you [00:16:05] Speaker C: to say, though, like, I really wanted the legacy of that book. If there was one to be like that, it would open up studies of kayfabe to a wider academic, journalistic and just popular audience. Because the concept of kayfabe, of something that exists in between fact and fiction, that's not quite a lie and not quite the truth, but that, that's where we all exist pretty much most of our lives. Not in pure lies or pure truth. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker C: And kayfabe is just sort of everywhere. What's really dangerous is this sort of perversion of kayfabe, this self aware kayfabe that had emerged, I think, really first in its purest form with stuff like the Scott hall arrival and with, you know, Steve Austin on ECW doing his promos about how terribly the industry screwed him, that sort of thing. Vince McMahon eventually catches on to it and decides like, okay, well, this is what wrestling's going to be. And he's already responsible for the fact that it has to happen because he killed old kayfabe by revealing it. [00:17:11] Speaker A: And for the tax break, folks. Yeah, right. [00:17:15] Speaker C: And to get out of lawsuits that he was implicated in. We're just joking around, don't worry. So, you know, he ends up embracing this new form of kayfabe that other people have invented, but that he really enshrines. And it's an idea of the truth where it's not so much the way I always describe it in interviews is like old kayfabe. And this was true in old politics prior to Trump as well. You had a big lie, but it was a big flat lie that you could stand on and build something on. And that lie in wrestling was, ladies and gentlemen and everybody else, whatever you see tonight is real. Believe in it. Believe that everything you see tonight is real. That was the lie. It was very simple. And similarly, in American politics, you had a big lie, which was everybody. You are popularly represented. We have popular sovereignty. It is democracy, you betcha. And that was a lie. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:18:18] Speaker C: But here's the thing. In both cases, those were lies you could do stuff with. And it was lies. They were lies that like everybody was kind of in on. You were in on it to a certain extent or whatever relevant way you need to be in on it. And you could shift things around within that system. There was some degree of at least competitiveness, at least in wrestling, because you had multiple, you know, in the institutions out there, you go wrestle for. In American politics there was more volatility and mix up in parties. But what we have now is this thing where instead the presentation is not, ladies and gentlemen and folks of all Ages. You know, everything you see tonight is real. It's. Everything you see tonight is fricking fake. It's all a bunch of bullshit except for the parts you want to be real, which could be anything, so be on the lookout. And by the way, here's a documentary that I made about what's happening behind the scenes that's even faker than the stuff I say in front of the scenes. But because it seems like it's behind the scenes, you stupid idiots will think it's the truth. That's what Neo Kayfabe is telling everybody. Everything is fake except what you want to believe is true, which is the most dangerous thing you can tell a country. Yeah. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Choose your own reality. [00:19:36] Speaker C: But that's what happened in wrestling first. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:38] Speaker A: You know that. [00:19:39] Speaker C: I mean, like, from watching wrestling in the 21st century especially, it turned into this game of like, well, what am I really seeing? Am I seeing something? Am I seeing the Montreal Screw job all over again where somebody genuinely is surprised? Am I watching something like the Pipe Bomb promo where I'm going to find out a decade later that unambiguously it was completely a work, you know. Like What? [00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Oh, God, I. Nothing. There's nothing to me that is more. More on like. Like encapsulates Neok Fave than the concept of a pipe bomb. [00:20:17] Speaker C: Oh, my God, yes. [00:20:19] Speaker B: The. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Of the Pipe bomb interview. Because the one I. Everyone. Well, everyone thinks of punks, right? Punks is not my favorite work shoot. And I. I know this story. [00:20:30] Speaker C: What's your favorite work shoot? [00:20:31] Speaker A: Oh, [00:20:34] Speaker C: tell me. I'm sure you talked about on the show before, but I'd love to know. [00:20:37] Speaker A: Oh, well, I only know about the. The story about it because of what it was probably another work shoot, which, you know, you get your shoot interviews and Paul Heyman. [00:20:48] Speaker C: Right. You never know. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Paul Heyman talks about how one day they're on the plane and. And. And Hayes, Michael Hayes Freebirds over. He's like, oh, you love these work shoots, boss. You know, you know who. You want someone to rip you a new. Know who? Rip you a new Paulie. [00:21:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:09] Speaker A: And advance is like, you want to get me? And Paulie's just like, you see you. Oh, all right. And it was Smackdown. And he goes out and he. He gives that. That, that. That pipe bomb on him where. Where he's just like, you ruined it. Yeah, you. You. You made professional wrestling a dirty word, you bastard. You can tell he's out there just saying. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Just say what he actually thinks. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah, he's just saying what he actually feels. And he ripped this man to shreds. And the look on his face. Holy. That. That's also probably the moment where you realize just how terrifyingly evil Vince McMahon is. [00:21:47] Speaker C: Well, that's the thing. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Because he held his together. [00:21:50] Speaker C: Hold his together. And you find out after these things always that it's like, Vince think. Thought it was funny. [00:21:55] Speaker A: He literally asked for it. [00:21:57] Speaker C: Right. Specifically asked for it. Like, I think of now when you had, you know, Mamdani visiting the Oval Office for noble purposes to. To fucking. I can't. God, so much news has happened. I can't. Was. But there was, like, some major policy accomplished. Oh, it was Free Mahmoud Khalil. That was it. Something like that. I can't remember. But he was. He got a big policy victory. But the point was the press conference. That was what was interesting. [00:22:23] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you, thank you, thank you. [00:22:25] Speaker C: You had that moment where somebody asked him, hey, Mayor Momdani, you, your Mayor elect, Mamdani, whatever it was, you called Trump a fascist in the past. Would you stand by that? And Mamdani pauses for a second, and you can see that he's had it as an answer prepared. I'm sure it'd be a very good answer. But Trump just interrupts him and goes, just say, yes. It's fine. We'll be done faster. [00:22:48] Speaker A: They'll love it. Yeah. Just go, yeah. [00:22:51] Speaker C: Which is amazing to me. He's like, it just did fine. Say yes, that I'm a fascist. I don't care. What do I care? I make money in the end, whether or not you call me a fascist. Yep. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Oh. Because, like, in that moment, in that way that he does and he can keep doing, and no one seems to care. He just gave the whole fucking game away. [00:23:12] Speaker C: Donnie, I don't think is necessarily, like, as captured yet by the game, but, like, Jesus Christ. Like, he's part of you. You cannot. And I got nervous when I had a party for my. For the book launch because I decided to have a professional wrestling show in Los Angeles during WrestleMania week because the book was getting released during LA Mania week. [00:23:36] Speaker A: It was just. Hell, yeah. [00:23:38] Speaker C: The timing was too perfect. But one of the wrestlers, it was just, like, indie folks. And one of them asked me to, you know, have, like, a moment in the. One of the matches, and I did, and I kind of blew the spot. I, like, didn't. It was Botchamania in there. I, like, could not. But I'm kind of glad that I failed at it, because I did not get a huge pop. And I know that that is Addictive. And once you are part of kayfabe, whether it's politics or wrestling, it is real hard to extricate yourself. That is one thing I've learned from all these interviews. It is once you have joined the kayfabe of either the politics club or the wrestling club, if you really don't have any morals, but you just want to feel that rush. Oh boy. Those are places you can go to feel the rush of being treated like a God or having the powers of one. [00:24:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And, and I, I don't know, I think that in, in controlled bursts. That's good. Like it's kind of like. Like what Perform art and a lot of stuff can be in. [00:24:41] Speaker C: I'm not anti wrestling. I love wrestling. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh well, I'm not saying anti but like. I know what you're saying because like. Yeah, it can be addiction and every time it does ends the same way. That's why we have so many tragedies in wrestling. [00:24:54] Speaker C: Yes. And politics eats you alive as well. You have to like do your bit and get out. Like there are very few just in the way. There are very few Bret Harts in wrestling. There are very few Bret Harts in politics too. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Well said. [00:25:07] Speaker C: And even Bret Hart is not Bret Hart. I love Bret Hart for a lot of reasons. As an interview subject, he was very generous with his time and I didn't discover anything about him that was horrific. But like he was in wrestling. I mean the very. He defended Vince McMahon against rape allegations from Rita. Jton. He eventually to his credit went back on that and apologized to Rita and said he was wrong. But for like decades he was defending Vince McMahon against rape allegations and he's the best guy there is, you know. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And he, he won a lot of points back for me when he did that. The worst things I've ever heard about him were in his ex wife's book. And I mean, yes, understandably so. But I mean I think he. We can all agree, uh, you more safely than us that, that he has the greatest. [00:25:58] Speaker C: Comparatively. I'm just saying. Comparatively. [00:26:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And he was right in saying that he woke up one day and had the realization the. Of the truth, America stinks. [00:26:11] Speaker C: That he was right about that. [00:26:13] Speaker A: Was. [00:26:13] Speaker B: That was. [00:26:14] Speaker C: That was another example of kind of a work shoot insofar as that whole, that whole saga of 97 and Brett, it's amazing how many times Vince just said go out there and say what you really think about me and. Or Shawn Michaels. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:27] Speaker C: You know, or America. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:29] Speaker C: And by the end, Brett Was so pissed off about everything that it was easy to get him to. To riff in a beautiful way because he was just speaking his truth, as it were. Vince pushed him to the limit, right? [00:26:44] Speaker A: Oh my God, like the worst director. God, that's crazy. So, yeah. Holy politics. [00:26:51] Speaker C: Anyway, propaganda. We're supposed to be talking about. Vote Loki, right? [00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Vote Loki. Vote Loki. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Believe. No, that. That was just a cold open card. But no, this is amazing. And like. I don't know. Like. Yeah, I feel. I feel like I've been taking a lot of it bugs. Do you have any questions? Ask a few more before we let her. [00:27:13] Speaker B: Go for it. Just go for it. Just go for it. [00:27:15] Speaker C: Live your life right. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Oh, God. Girl, Girl. I'm trying. I had a few things. I was like, what would I ask Josie now? Because I thought about like, it's been so long since probably you've been in this. This space specifically, you've been back land. Also. You're, you know, not in the country anymore. What does the state of Neo Kayfabe like look like for you from the other side of the pond? Like when you look back over here, [00:27:42] Speaker C: you know, it's a great question. I feel like in Europe they're still rocking Neo Kfab, but in the US I almost feel like a new stage has moved on. [00:27:50] Speaker A: I was. I didn't. Necessity. [00:27:53] Speaker C: Ironically enough, I was quoted coining this term first Auf Deutsch in German for an Austrian leftist journal that interviewed me about Neo Kayfabe and then promptly went out of business. My. The issue that featured my profile was the last issue they ever published. What are you gonna do? [00:28:13] Speaker B: But. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Sounds like journalism. [00:28:15] Speaker C: Yeah, well, exactly. But when I told them was. America has moved on to what I would call necro kayfabe, which if. Okay, if kayfabe is everything you see tonight is real, Neo Kayfabe is everything you see tonight is fake, except for the parts you want to believe are real. Necro Kayfabe is. I will tell whatever lie is necessary to make you all claw each other to death with your bare hands while I sit and watch. And I've locked the doors. Have a fun time. Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's. That's the. I'm not saying that's what's going to happen, but that does. Logic that the. The Republicans are operating with is just. Well, we've locked all the doors and we're just going to keep lying to you until you all kill each other or we kill you first, you know? [00:28:56] Speaker A: Jesus. I mean you literally. Like, I had like one more like kind of two parter question. And you just sort of answered it, dude. [00:29:02] Speaker C: Like, I've thought about this a lot. I need to write an essay about Necro KFAB at some point, but it's too depressing. Every time I sit Necro kfab, I'm like, ah, why am I even writing this? No one listened to me about Neo kfab. I didn't elected, no, that. [00:29:20] Speaker A: That's the finish I thought I started but rambled away from. Like, that's why I stopped doing the Monday night shows. Because I was like, this is so depressing. Like, it's all. [00:29:28] Speaker C: After a while you're like, oh man, this is some really grim. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Like, yeah, like, this just isn't fun anymore. Like the first couple. [00:29:36] Speaker C: Ringmaster 2 Someday. Because I did not cover Vince's whole life. I mean, ringmaster ends in 1999 because. Because I had a very strict word count that I was not to go over by my contract. And Vince has lived too much life, like, way more life than you'd expect or whatever. And he cheated death countless times and been a participant in or outcome of a lot of American history and now world history. So I ended it in 99. And I'm like, I've always been intending to go back and go to the material I got about times after that and do more research and do Ringmaster 2. Yeah, I don't know. I gotta be ready for that. It's gonna be so hard to go back into that world, especially knowing where the Vince McMahon story leads. Because I swear to God, I don't know if I could have written this book, could have stomached writing this book if the Janelle Grant allegations were already out by 2019 when I first brainstormed the idea of, of doing it. Like, if I'd known the stuff that we now have pretty strong evidence of, shall we say, the allegations. [00:30:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:45] Speaker C: I don't know that I could have faced his story. I'm glad I didn't know because I think his story needs to be faced and confronted. But I don't know that I would have had the strength to look at it if I'd known that. If you know what I mean? [00:30:58] Speaker A: No, absolutely, absolutely. Because, like, how do you. It's like you go into it and like. Well, I, I would equate it to kind of like when we, we joke. I've joked forever about a Vince McMahon is history's greatest monster. Like, and like, people like, don't even realize that, like, he's like, probably up there, like, top five if not top three, like some of the most evil people of all time [00:31:23] Speaker C: in recent entertainment history. He's been involved in a truly astounding number of. Of crimes, alleged crimes and just general misconduct. Oftentimes stuff that we saw in live television. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And I. But that's why I get to. Is that I said all that before that came out and where we just. You just. [00:31:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Just based off of what you knew about his business ethics. We've talked about Black Saturday on this show. [00:31:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker A: Well, we, we did. We did. The Roman Empire is wrestling. And I was like. Well, yeah, I was like, there's only one Caesar I can think of. So he gave a little history there. So like. Yeah, it's like it. And, and you know, I wanted to touch on this too because we touched on it a little bit our last episode. What's going on right now in the Fed with CMLL and tko and all that we talked about last week is in fact it's funny that you call it Necro Neo Kayfabe because what's going on right now is the ghost of what Vince made wrestling. Like the ghost of the Vince McMahon project is continuing. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:46] Speaker A: In, in. In this. And it's disgusting. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Right? There's this disgusting zombie version of what you liked during 1997 through 2005 or whatever. [00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah, but, but more so than that, it's, it's, it's. It's the, the business stuff too. The way the conquest, the, the. The buying of. Of triple. [00:33:06] Speaker C: I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker B: The. [00:33:08] Speaker A: What, what, what was the wording in the contract that we read that article about? [00:33:13] Speaker C: It was like the, the, the post [00:33:15] Speaker A: biological [00:33:18] Speaker B: biopolitics that was like you no longer own yourself. You like your likeness is now owned forever thanks to like, like, yeah. AI generation and image control and post biological life. [00:33:30] Speaker C: That. That stuff was insane. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So like basically doing, doing fake. Fake diesel and fake razor. [00:33:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Finally legally. [00:33:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Like he's literally saying no, no, no, I wasn't kidding. You know, like you. Because it's been long enough and it's you real and that. And it plays back that thing that you realize that all the things that he was doing and saying and being was all true. Like he was all like, like eventually if you let me go long enough, I will do all of this for real. [00:34:02] Speaker C: Right. I'll do all this for real. But what's interesting was the stuff that like, because it's kayfabe and we're in the zone of kayfabe, it's always never quite True or untrue, it's that murky water in. In between. Like, you know, when I did the book, like, yes, he was living out all this true stuff about what his real business practices were like, but it completely. What I would argue is, And I do argue in the book, is that what he was really doing when he was playing Mr. McMahon, his character was not even so much being a parody of his own business practices. It was that his business practices and his character were both parodies of his own father's business practices. Yes, he was making fun and expanding on and submitting to the evil that Vince McMahon Sr. Had committed. And Vince McMahon Sr. Is dead, so I can't get in trouble for libeling him. But Vince McMahon. Vincent James McMahon was a son of a bitch in a lot of ways. Like, there are some things that are on the record about that guy that are real messed up. And down to the fact that he abandoned his sons. Yeah. You know, y. Like, he has these kids, and then with Vicky Hanner, and then he just ups and leaves. Doesn't stick around past the christening and. Yeah. [00:35:24] Speaker A: Can you imagine that? That domino. That domino has led us to. [00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah. That Vincent James McMahon came back from, you know, was, like, stationed in North Carolina for the war, meets a married woman, has an affair, gets her knocked up, brings her to New York. It doesn't go that well with his family. So he boots her back down to North Carolina and he sticks her out in New York, and that's that. And then 12 years later, his second wife, with whom he has a loving new family that he adopted, did. Wasn't even his blood family. Vin senior adopts a family after having abandoned his former wife and two children. Yeah, yeah, whatever. You know, one in, one out. His second wife basically bullied him into having any kind of relationship with Vince. The Vince we know. Vincent Kennedy McMahon. Juanita. Juanita is the second wife. To her credit, was like. Or maybe not. Maybe not to her credit. She's like, you gotta have a relationship with this kid. And after a while, that turns into 12 years old, little Vinnie Lupton finding out that he's really a McMahon and going to New York to see his father's empire, and he can't get his father's love through family. He sees that his father already has a family that he's taken in and loves them and doesn't give any to Vince. So Vinnie's just like, okay, I guess I'll get good at the business. And he got way too good at the business. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's Amazing. One of the other wonderful things we have. I mentioned you as a client slash boss. I, I edit your podcast. Here Comes Tomorrow. [00:37:09] Speaker C: Right. And Here Comes Tomorrow. Yes, Go To Here Comes Tomorrow.net if you're interested in the X Men or comics or whatever. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Well, I'll, I'll give you another shot to, to boost everything, but we should start heading towards the exit here. But I was like, it's the same as like magic and chaos magic. You get good. If you get too good at it, it will destroy you. [00:37:31] Speaker C: It'll literally destroy you. [00:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:33] Speaker C: Which, no, if you get good at the dark arts of kayfabe, it will turn you into something you don't want to be. Like. [00:37:39] Speaker B: He. [00:37:39] Speaker C: This was the craziest thing. One of the, I shouldn't say this, there were so many crazy things from that book research. But one of the craziest things was they tracked down in North Carolina, in rural North Carolina, Shell Davis, who was Vince Mc Vinny Mc Vinnie Lupton's best friend in sixth grade. Sixth grade. And the year after sixth grade, he moves away. And then within that year he meets his father. So this kid, this guy knew Vinnie Lupton as a kid in sixth grade who was very nice, who was just a quiet sort of well meaning child, generally well liked, not a bully. And he hadn't met even then he'd gone through a lot of abuse from his stepfather and his mother. But he had not met Vince Senior yet. And within a year he would move away, meet Vince Senior and then subsequent to that stories about young Vince McMahon get start to get gradually weirder and weirder from people who knew him. Like there was something about getting involved in the business and having a father in the business and getting to know Dr. Jerry Graham and see what it's like to be a heel. These things were very dangerous for a child. It was. I, I sound like Jeff Goldblum here in Jurassic Park. Like you, you, you, you kept asking your wrestling promoters whether they could but not whether they should. You know. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Yes. Oh my God. When we're, I had do work with a, a startup of wonderful queer folks and we try to. Yeah, right. We know we do like social media kind of stuff and, and everyone's, you know, we were always trying to think of what's a way we could get a little more money and like come up with a, a fun thing, a service or something we could sell. And because of how I am as a person and I'm constantly talking about this, eventually one of them will always be like, well, we should start A wrestling promotion. [00:39:27] Speaker B: And. [00:39:27] Speaker A: And my God. [00:39:28] Speaker C: No. [00:39:29] Speaker A: My. My answer every time is I had. I had less ethical problems working for churches than I did starting a wrestling promotion. And I. If anyone I know who works at the local wrestling promotion is hearing this right now. Love you, John. Not you. You're perfect. Sweet baby. [00:39:53] Speaker C: You can. If people can do it. God bless, because we need more wrestling in this world. I ain't touching that. I. Oh, like I'm a freaking landlord. We're renting out our house. And I, I am more comfortable being a landlord, which is like a genuinely evil thing to be. Yes, we try to be as ethical as we can than I would ever feel being a wrestling promoter. Even if I was the nicest wrestling promoter in the whole world, it would corrupt me. [00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It's just, you're. You're Be. Okay, so you want me to literally be God. Cool, awesome. Let's go. [00:40:23] Speaker B: Great. [00:40:24] Speaker C: Cool. I. Not only that you're Zeus, you're. You're the king of the gods and the queen of the gods. You're telling everybody, you're telling all the gods what they have to do, and then you sit there in your throne and go, and if you're Vince McMahon, you actually make them wrestle you and give you the belt. Like, that's the amazing thing. [00:40:41] Speaker A: You know, it's all so up. So. Yeah, I. This is like, been one of our. [00:40:46] Speaker B: I. [00:40:47] Speaker C: Wait, wait, wait. I have to pop. I have to pop in an endorsement. I have to pop in an endorsement because here's the thing, here's the bright side, at least for now. In my hometown of Providence, Rhode Island, I have a lot of hometowns, but it's the town I was living in and where my father is from and where my grandfather's from. Providence, Rhode island is currently having an election for mayor where the very right wing Democrat mayor of Providence, which is the capital of Rhode island, is in a primary that is very competitive against a guy named David Morales who is trying to unseat him. He is a state representative and former local pro wrestling champion. David Morales used to wrestle as David Morales, a corrupt politician. I think I knew about this. Yeah, he got. It was this local southeastern New England promotion. He got a little bit of press for it. He was a sitting state rep while he was also the sitting champion belt holder. While he was the belt holder and estate rep. He interviewed me for the book, Providence Book launch of Ringmaster. So I, I'm very biased here. I. He's. He's a friend that I've known for a number of years, but he's currently running and using all of the charm and theatricality that he gained in his years of studying the. The ring arts to try and push a really progressive agenda. Oh, that's kind of wild. I mean, just the other day he released. Not to get you too admired down in politics of this kind, but just the other day he released this video where he came out way swinging in favor of this ballot initiative that would force Providence to divest from any companies that work in genocide or apartheid, which obviously is pointed very closely at Israel. And the video is him with this local Jewish Voice for Peace activist talking. And it's him. It's not even him saying vote for me. It's just him saying, hey, everybody, never again means never again for anybody. Sign the petition for this ballot initiative. And it's like, damn. Like this is the kind of courage you need. And something like wrestling can give you that courage and that ability to communicate. [00:42:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that I say heel. Or when a face is in trouble and getting jumped, the heel or the face locker room empties out and they come out and save their ass. Use that mentality like, wait, wait, you're not making it about you. You're just doing it because it's right. [00:43:16] Speaker C: You're just right. [00:43:17] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:43:17] Speaker C: You're doing the right thing. But also with an eye to the theatricality of the. The. Of the optics. He knows that he's a guy people are paying attention to on social media. He knows he just got written up in some national profiles about like, who's going to be the next mom, Donnie. Because he's one of these Mamdani wave type democratic socialists and he's using that platform for a thing that's really worthwhile, in my humble opinion. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's the kind of the neo kayfabe of it is he's, he's recognizing the optics. Yes, he's doing it because he knows it's going to look good. But what's the message he's sending is that I'm not doing this because it looks good. I'm doing it because it's the right fucking thing to do. [00:43:58] Speaker C: Right. And even if it looks good but in parentheses, and I know it looks [00:44:02] Speaker A: good and I know it looks. [00:44:03] Speaker C: That's fine. That's how politics works, you know. Yeah, whatever. That's the world we live in. But I just didn't want to end on too depressing a note because I do think the intersection of politics and wrestling is a field that needs more progressives entering it. Because look, there are so many progressive wrestling fans. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:44:22] Speaker C: It's just that the wrestlers themselves very often have been large, not in no small part because of Vince McMahon's personal empire, have largely disproportionately Republican. You know, a lot of conservative guys who come out of the WWE system and even the AEW system to an extent, but especially for many years out of the WCW and WWE system. And I don't think that's, that's. It doesn't mean that wrestling is synonymous with conservative politics at all. [00:44:53] Speaker A: And it, in, in wrestling the art form and wrestling, the community has never been actually just conservatives. I don't think. I just, you know, you're just about it. You know what I mean? Like there's always been, we say all the time wrestling is queer, wrestling is gay. It always has been. [00:45:10] Speaker C: Oh yeah. It's not just because people are touching each other and wearing bright colors. They have to. I wrote a whole essay about this because they have to show vulnerability. That's the whole point. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Theater. [00:45:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it's theater. And you have to show the full range of human emotions which men are taught not to do. Do you know. Etc. [00:45:28] Speaker A: I bring a. I bring up that essay almost as much as I bring up Ring Master Josie. Thank you for that one. [00:45:34] Speaker C: A thank you. Well, I wanted. I want to read something really quick that this reminded me of was from the essay that I sort of stole my feet a lot of my thesis from for the R Master book. [00:45:45] Speaker A: I got nothing else going on. I just want. Don't want to take up too much of your time. So by all means, please, no, no, [00:45:51] Speaker C: let me just read this and then I'll get out of here because I do. I'm talking myself horse. But that's just because I enjoy talking to you so much. But the, the. There's this beautiful portion of this essay called the Last Wrestling Piece which was written by Richard Meltzer, the first rock critic, the first professional rock critic. Richard Meltzer's a genius. He's become a friend. I'm honored to be a correspondent with him. But he wrote this essay called the Last wrestling piece in 1985, right after the first WrestleMania. He had been a huge wrestling hit since he. He was a single digit age kid in Queens, not Queens. It was like Queens or Brooklyn. And he saw what Vince was doing for what it was at the time. And no one else did really. Even within the system, within the wrestling system. They saw him wrecking things but they didn't have a vision of what he was trying to build. But Richard got It like Meltzer. No relation to Dave Meltzer. Just. Just fusingly enough. Richard Meltzer has no relation to Dave Meltzer. [00:46:46] Speaker A: I was going to say Richard. Don't call me Dave Meltzer. [00:46:49] Speaker C: Don't call me Dave Meltzer. Yes, but he totally predicted where this was all headed. But the thing is, he opens the last recipe, which you can read on the official Ringmaster website. I was given permission by Richard to publish the first. For the first time ever, you can read the full, unedited, not edited, uncut director's cut of this essay at Ringmaster the book dot com. Go to the free extras section. He opens it with these. This section where he goes, like, I hold these truths to be self evident. Where it's like this, this. This sort of dictation of. Of the. You know, like the Declaration of Independence, except about wrestling. And the Last item, number 12, is he says something so beautiful and tragic. By shilling for itself on priorly occupied turf, like Letterman, Saturday Night Live, the sports sections of major metropolitan dailies, wrestling actually finds itself in a position to catalytically undermine an incredibly stupid and docile nation's belief structure re everything regarding everything to affect the removal of the Master Program ring from a people's collective nose, as it were. A new la liberte wrestling style. And then the last sentence. But such is far, far from its bag of intentions. And it sure don't want snot on its hands. [00:48:15] Speaker A: Oh, wow. But like these. [00:48:17] Speaker C: Meltzer's right. The theory of wrestling is very powerful. If you know the arts of kayfabe, you can do a lot with it. It may tempt you to turn to the dark side, but, like, this stuff does have the ability to overthrow the Master Program. Because once you know these cheat codes, these are the only cheat codes that the people in power actually know. The only power, the only cheat codes they know are Neo Kfab and having a lot of money. You and I don't have the amount of money they have, but we can know Neo Kayfabe. [00:48:45] Speaker A: And if you work Neo Kayfabe, the. You get the money. Yeah. [00:48:50] Speaker C: And then you get the women. [00:48:54] Speaker A: Yeah. First we get the jobs and we get the khakis. Yeah, yeah. Look, I'm a millennial, a neurodivergent one of that. [00:49:05] Speaker B: No. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Holy. What a way to end it. Josie, you're so good at this. Yeah. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:49:10] Speaker C: I appreciate it. This is really fun. I forgot that I enjoyed talking about this. I got so sick of talking about wrestling and politics after a while. But you people are actually smart. Unlike 90% of the time I'd get interviewed for like when, when the book was coming out, I had all these international outlets coming to interview me and it was always, you could always tell when it was international outlet from a country that had no exposure to wrestling at all. [00:49:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:33] Speaker C: And it would just be the most 101 conversation. And I was working so hard in those conversations to make sure they didn't walk away with the lesson that wrestling equals conservatism. Because that's not what I'm trying to say at all. But like that was very often how when the write up would come out, I'd be like, well, fucking great. They completely missed the point of what I was saying. They're like, how wrestling turned America fascist. And it's like, wasn't that wrestling did it. [00:49:59] Speaker B: It was that it said America's fascists [00:50:01] Speaker C: and fascists learned from wrestling. How you can dismantle reality, you know. [00:50:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:50:09] Speaker B: The wrestling's a byproduct. [00:50:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say you said the wrestling is. Yeah, exactly. The Americans are fascist. The fascism, wrestling comes from the fact that there's fascists making it. It's not the other way around. [00:50:21] Speaker C: It's a tool, it's a medium. And it's right now in the hands of some very bad people. But we can wield it too. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. [00:50:30] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that was kind. I kind of, I really hope that people get that. I, I, I put recently, I think I posted recently on Blue sky too is I had no soul. I can make so much money teaching Dems how to do neok. Yeah, but, but they would never go for the progress. Like the ones that have the money to, to pay me would never actually do the good. So I don't want to teach them. I don't want to teach the bad one. [00:50:53] Speaker C: Right. The only time I know who would listen to me about that is David Morales. But he knows more about. Yeah, yeah, he already does it, so who cares? I don't, he doesn't have anything to learn from me about that. [00:51:03] Speaker A: Oh, I love, I love how it's. And that's why this show exists. Everything is wrestling. Because it's like it's so apparent that all these people came to it at first principles and then discovered each other after you, me and like everybody like right, right. Figure this out. We all put this together. [00:51:21] Speaker B: So. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Bugs, do you, do you have anything to, to add before we, we get to the plug? [00:51:27] Speaker B: This has been a phenomenal conversation. I've just Kind of been along for the ride. Thank you, y'. [00:51:31] Speaker C: All. That means so much to me. I had a great time to have you. Oh, my God. [00:51:35] Speaker A: And, yeah, I mean, we. We got a lot of stuff planned out, but we've already talked about how there's no reason there can't be sequels if. And again, this is kind of just a platform for people I know, too, if they, like, like, la last episode. Arturo Garcia, wonderful journalist, friend, lucha libre aficionado, pitched me. He came to me and he was like, no, no one will give me, like. Like, space to write about Americano gate. And I was like, please come say everything you want to say about it. [00:52:10] Speaker B: And thank God he did, because. [00:52:11] Speaker C: Because that was why. [00:52:13] Speaker A: Yeah. That was nuts. Yeah. Go good, folks. If you haven't listened to that, go back and listen to it. So, yeah, thank you so much for being here again. [00:52:21] Speaker C: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. I. I just popped into the chat on this little conversation, the last wrestling piece by Richard Meltzer. If you have show notes or anything, do link to that because it's a brilliant, brilliant essay, and Richard's. Richard is worthy of your attention. Vote David Morales. We live in Providence. And, yeah, I'm at Josie Zone on the website, so. [00:52:41] Speaker A: Hell, yeah. Good. You got your plugs. I didn't even have to ask. You're so good at this, girl. [00:52:45] Speaker C: I do it a lot. Okay. [00:52:49] Speaker A: And, yeah, feel free to, like, send me any links, and I can get them into the show. Notes, bugs, do you want to plug anything? [00:52:57] Speaker B: You can find me wherever fine podcasts are sold. [00:53:00] Speaker A: A right. [00:53:01] Speaker B: That's him saying this. [00:53:03] Speaker A: You can find me at least once a week, usually with my pod children over at Wednesday Night Fake Fights, where me and Hampton Sero and Erica, the length Warrens recap that week's dynamite with just gay and body horror. There's a lot of body horror. Yeah, we do a lot of body horror and a lot of tangenting. And the ghost of George C. Scott's there. Oh, my God. And he. I got him to do HRT on the pod once. That was fun. I had to do my shot when you get to. So, yeah, come check that out. Listen to this pod. What's the other one that Josie was on? Oh, my God. The most important election of our lives. I'm not on it. I just edit it. But Josie came on and did the most wonderful Withering Heights. Oh, my God. [00:53:57] Speaker B: That's right. [00:53:58] Speaker C: I sang Withering Heights on that one. That was good. I was very proud of that. Incredible. [00:54:02] Speaker A: As you should be. Go find that. Otherwise. Yeah. @garrettaylor.com on Blue Sky. Find me, Give me money. Find bugs, get bugs money. Find Josie. I don't know. You want to get Josie, might get Josie money. I always tell people to give people money and otherwise give me money. [00:54:22] Speaker C: Just pre order my book. Backbook.com. [00:54:24] Speaker A: boom. There you go. Yeah. And I'm not even sure yet what the next episode will be, but we'll see you in two weeks with something. [00:54:37] Speaker C: Yeah, something in a few weeks. [00:54:44] Speaker A: Oh, goodbye, folks. [00:54:50] Speaker C: Sam.