The Law is Wrestling w/Sheryl Weikal

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Anyway, Ella, check this bullshit out. Look at this. Look at this fucking magic card. [00:00:07] Speaker B: I have been banged with flash of cardboard Martial law. I know him. [00:00:14] Speaker A: At the beginning of your upkeep, detain target creature and opponent control until your next turn. That creature can't attack or block her and its abilities can't be activated. It's just there. It's in gay baby jail. This is some fucking Azureus motherfucking bullshit. And if you don't know what Azurius is, I'm gonna help you with that because I brought a second guy. So the Azurius Guild is one of the ten guilds of Ravnica, and it's run by this shithead grand arbiter, Augustin iv. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Oh, I don't like that. Looks like head pig to me if I've ever seen a head pig. That's. [00:00:49] Speaker A: White spells you cast cost one less to cast. Blue spells you cast cost one less to cast. Spells your opponents cast cost one more to cast. He is committing tax evasion. He is stealing from the poor, giving it to himself. He is in blue and white cop colors. Fuck the Azureus rakdos forever, baby. We're murder clowns. [00:01:13] Speaker B: I gotta tell you, I gotta tell y', all, I'm having a. Between these two cards, listeners, I am having a visceral reaction as a Minneapolitan. First of all, that top pig. Well, first of all, this Augustine, [00:01:32] Speaker A: we [00:01:32] Speaker B: have a saying here that people are like, y' all defunded the police. And we're like, no, no, no, no. The police are defunding the city. That's what's happening here and continues to happen. What was it, 30 million? 30 something. [00:01:49] Speaker A: I think it's 33 million is something [00:01:52] Speaker B: in overtime during Operation Racial Cleansing that they failed at because we take care of us. Speaking of we taking care of us, this top one. Oh, my God. Okay, so there is some sort of, I imagine, peaceful protest going on that was totally fine before this in the blue. And the armor with the hammer showed up and decided that he made need to make a blockade. Okay, So I don't know who this is, but he is rioting and these people seem to have been having a nice afternoon. And I, and, and I don't, I don't like anything about this. [00:02:28] Speaker A: I want to call attention to the flavor text. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Yes, please. [00:02:33] Speaker A: The good of society matters much more than the inconvenience of a few. Oh, that is the most cop ass. I, I. [00:02:44] Speaker B: All right, I'm gonna, I am going to very calmly, very calmly, not threateningly push the button. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Non actionable. [00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah, non actionably. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Craig, Craig, watch. Watcher. It's gonna be fine. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Watch, watch. Look, I'm. I'm start. I'm starting the show. [00:03:00] Speaker A: My hands are up here. My hands are up here. [00:03:02] Speaker B: I got one finger. That means I have to remember how to do this. Welcome back to Everything Is Wrestling, where we make it all up all the time. It is I, Ella Taylor. What with the she and the her pronouns. And I am here with Bugs. Say hi, Bugs. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Hi, Bugs. [00:03:38] Speaker B: Gosh, I hope that I don't get sick of that for a while. [00:03:43] Speaker A: I'm still gonna do it. [00:03:44] Speaker B: No. It's just so delightful to me. Bugs Matrix. Hi. We love you. And we have returned to talk about, you know. You know, I was like, how can we make this more. How? You know. Yes, yes, we are gas leaky and stuff like this, but how can we be a little more professional about this? I'm only find of like, how. How can we talk about better understanding? Professional wrestling will help you better understand the world around you. [00:04:16] Speaker A: The enlightenment rococo [00:04:21] Speaker B: in the fact that both are full of pigs. I mean, [00:04:27] Speaker A: yeah, like, you know what I'm doing, dog. [00:04:32] Speaker B: So that brings us to. We had. I had a thought early on when we were talking about this. We had the. This thing where this, I don't know, you could call. I don't want to say it was manic. It was a little manic, but we were like. [00:04:47] Speaker A: It was like a hypothetical spiritual ayahuasca trip. But we were nowhere near each other and no substances were used as far as, [00:04:56] Speaker B: hey, I'm in a legal state. I was high as hell on cannabis. So. Yes. God, I'm never getting a job, dog. I'm so scared. So. So that's either. We came up with a list of like 26 things that were wrestling, and one of them was the law. And initially we were gonna hit up a local lawyer who. Whomst we all adore. A friend of the trans. But then as we've been doing this show is like, you know what? We know so many cool queer people, which is. Let's just do that for a while. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Let's see how many of those we can get on here. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's. It's almost like we don't hear enough from us as it is. And, you know, it's not for lack of us being loud. I'm loud as I know. [00:05:49] Speaker A: I think I peaked the microphone every third syllable. [00:05:52] Speaker B: Oh, honey, it's fine. I'm editing. I'll take care of it. All that all's that to say we love you. Wonderful. Ally, we have a different show planned for you because we're talking about the law today and we. Who are we going to get? [00:06:12] Speaker A: Who else are we going to fucking get? This is. Everything is wrestling, dog. We only get the best. [00:06:17] Speaker B: We only get the expert. [00:06:18] Speaker A: We only book the professionals, dog. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Absolutely. And also Kennedy was here that one time, and that was. Yeah, [00:06:31] Speaker A: they're a professional something. [00:06:33] Speaker B: They're professional chef at this point. They're, they're professional, like five things, but, yeah. Magic. Magic card retailer. All this to say welcome to our guest lawyer, but not your lawyer, Cheryl Weichel. Hello. [00:06:50] Speaker C: It's lovely to be here, but I'll be honest with you, I cannot possibly live up to that reputation. And also, if you do want to class up the podcast, you should not have invited the lawyer with the most tattoos and piercings of any lawyer in the courthouse. That's, that's. I was reminded by opposing counsel this morning. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Oh, my, oh, my God, dog, you need a lawyer. I know a guy. [00:07:16] Speaker C: No, I just, I like to, I like to live on the proverbial edge, [00:07:21] Speaker B: you know, so what's, I was gonna say, let's start there. [00:07:25] Speaker C: That's. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Heel. That, that's what he did right there. That's. [00:07:29] Speaker C: Anyway, you know, I decided a long time ago because I, I've been practicing law for, let's just say, years, enough years that I'm old. And the, the truth of the matter is, somewhere along the line, it decided, you know, if, you know, being trans is going to be transgressive enough in this field, I might as well, you know, go all the way. And so I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm walking into court, I have my, my nose ring and my eyebrow piercing, and I, I, I'll be honest, I kind of love it if every year I get a little more edgy. And, you know, there's, there's going to come a point in, like, my mid-40s where I'm just walking into courtful goth. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Oh, let's go. [00:08:17] Speaker A: I mean, like, [00:08:20] Speaker C: let them say something at this point. I, I've seen it all at this point. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah, no, make like, I, I, I'd want that to be my lawyer. Not that I want to have to lawyer up for anything, but, like, you know, that that would put me at ease. [00:08:35] Speaker B: If we keep doing this podcast, it's bound to happen. [00:08:37] Speaker A: I mean, from what we've said about [00:08:39] Speaker B: Jacob, [00:08:44] Speaker C: Because so many lawyers, usually the white men, so many lawyers are sort of, they're, they're they have this expectation of how everything is going to go. And I. I genuinely believe it's to the detriment of not only the profession as a whole, but to the administration of justice. Not just because I think if you're a lawyer or a judge and you're judging your case or your opponents or your opponent based on what they're wearing or how many piercings they have or what their tattoos are, and obviously there are some tattoos. Like, if you have Nazi tattoos, go ahead and judge. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, well, new nuance in all things. Get out of here. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Beyond that, you know, like, I, I like this morning, you know, certain opposing counsel was making a. A comment that a. A black attorney was unprofessional because of her hair. And, you know, if books could kill, he would have dead. And, you know, I would. I, I just. I hate that. I hate that. With the passion of a thousand burning suns, because there is. I. I will take to my deathbed the idea that respectability, politics is nothing but fifth, heteronormative white supremacy in a trench coat. [00:10:03] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's the podcast I have to record after this one. I don't know what's coming up, but look out for Hate speech featuring Ella Taylor. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Yeah, plug. Plug your plugs. Plug your plugs. And also talk about the podcast. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, well, yeah, fair enough. I mean, real quickly we go on there, you talk about things you hate. It's fun. I'm gonna go. I'm going in there with the concept of cringe, because that's basically my entire thesis on that is what you just said. It's like it's all. All of that is a bunch of. Meant to keep you in line to a status quo that is helping no one but a few CIS white men. And like. [00:10:45] Speaker C: Yeah, but it's so much deeper than that also, and it's a point that I've made to other lawyers that I don't think we, as a society think about nearly enough when you break down the legal profession to its most basic role. We are storytellers. The legal profession is. We do not allow you, for better or worse, to tell your own story and. And have a chance in hell of winning, if we're being honest. So we are professional storytellers that people hire or assign to tell a story within particular rules. But the problem comes in where there are certain stories that are best told by the people who most understand them, which is why I think diversity is so important in the legal profession. And which is not to say that I think that you know, certain stories can only be told by certain people, but I do think that certain stories can only be understood well by certain people. Certain stories should be told by certain people because they are culturally significant, because they have particular import. And I know that, you know, I have the greatest respect for, for attorneys who, you know, there are attorneys I know who are fantastic. But if you're cis, you don't know what it's like to be trans. If you're white, you don't know what it's like to be black. If you, if you are born in the United States, you don't know what it's like to be an immigrant. And there are certain parts of those stor where an attorney who has not experienced those things simply cannot. That you can try, you can empathize, but you cannot put yourself in that position. And I genuinely believe that when you have a profession with professional standards that disincentivize people with backgrounds that are not the norm, you will end up with stories that are missing those important elements. And, and it becomes a self reinforcing cycle to the detriment of everybody. It is, I think that there's an expression in the, in the, in the law called prejudicial to the administration of justice. And that is what I think is prejudicial to the administration of justice. If you are genuinely going to have, you know, some statue of a blind lady, you have to have people who understand the stories that they are tasked with telling. And I do not think that we as a profession are anywhere close to that. So one of my pet projects is trying, you know, to drag as much of the legal profession as I can kicking and screaming into the 21st century, even if sometimes it feels like an ant trying to pull a car. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I help produce podcasts and podcasters, so I know all about herding cats. And. No, that's, that's so fantastic. And again, like, you've, you've done and done my job for me in regards to, you know, I was thinking about all this because, you know, I will try to do a little bit preparation. I was like, you know, what are ways that the law is, is like wrestling? And then you come in here and it's like, well, look, she's, I do all this research. You just say it. You know, it's, it's lawyers and professional wrestlers, by their very nature, at the heart of their job are storytellers. Like that, that is what you're doing and you're doing it within a set of rules, laws and agreed upon regulations. Of this fake sport. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would also maybe add. And it's all in the service of maintaining a status quo. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. [00:14:32] Speaker C: Absolutely. I would add that a lot of it is carefully choreographed. [00:14:37] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. That's hot. That's hot. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Oh, hot take. [00:14:42] Speaker C: Hot take. [00:14:43] Speaker B: In my fake sports. No. [00:14:45] Speaker C: There is so much in court that happens that is carefully choreographed even when it's not intended. There are so many. I have had so many hearings, so many trials where like you, you. When you're. Sometimes you do things in court because it's expected. Sometimes you are sending messages to the other side, sometimes you are sending messages to the judge. There's. Yeah, there is so much that is choreographed because you have to know what is actually a real fight and what is not. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because you have to work with and kind of work through and to a certain extent manipulate the system that you're working in to get the outcome that you need. So like, you know, you can go into being like, I know how this is going to go because there's only so many ways it could go because we're working, we're working within that. You know what I mean? So like. No, absolutely. That makes sense. Totally. And you also made me think of another thing that I've been holding on to for when you were here for this whole concept of the laws, graphs. Because I think of, okay, you know, it's a set of rules. You talk about like judges and stuff. The ref is the referee, is the holder of the law. And for, in, in professional wrestling, in this play that they're putting on. But you have sometimes a guy famously who's famous for lying, cheating and stealing to the point where he took these heel behaviors and he did them so charmingly that he was a baby face for doing them. He was a good guy for doing them. His name is Eddie Guerrero and he's one of my all time favorite wrestlers. And when you talking about telling a story for a judge or a jury to get across a version of events that you want to get across for, to make these sets of rules work in your favor. No one did it like Eddie. So I'm going to explain to you what. He did this several times. And to me this is like, this is. Is the greatest. It's a great example of how like bad actors can use established law to do heinous things and get away with things and lie and cheat and steal, not technically have broken the law, you know what I mean? Like, at any point. And like I was like thinking about that and I was like, well, I think about Eddie in his. His chair. So Eddie would do this thing where usually you would have what is called a ref bump. So like a ref gets hit accidentally and is knocked out for a second. And for whatever reason, the. The ref, the holder of the law, can't see everything that's going on and thus has to kind of take, you know, word for it later. So there's a really great clip that I shared with Bugs once where. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, if you should. I would say, hey, Bugs, can we bring this up? If you could. I'll drop. We'll show it to drop it for Cheryl later. But like, the ref takes a bump and Eddie kind of smiles and looks at the camera like, I know what time it is. And he grabs a steel chair, which if he were to hit the guy with, would be against the law and thus he would lose, go to jail, right? So he grabs the chair and the guy. And the guy's like going to defend himself and. And he hits him once with it. And then the guy starts to get up. And then just as the ref is starting to get up, he hits the chair on the mat, throws it down and throws himself down and acts like he's just been hit with the chair. And the ref looks and sees what's going on and says, well, clearly this guy hit you with the chair. Disqualification. And he wins. Manipulate. Manipulating the situation. And my brain went like, 9. Possession is 9, 10 of a law, right? Like, he's holding the chair you, like, just because I threw it at him and he caught it. Doesn't mean. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Doesn't mean. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Doesn't mean. So all that to say, an anecdote of. Of how having these sets of rules to govern our stuff is kind of necessary. But you also have to understand that, that. That you have to be wily because people who want to manipulate it are going to be wilier. You know what I mean? Like, so you have to know your. Yeah, you can't just. It's. [00:19:38] Speaker C: It's. It's interesting that using that as an example, and I'll tell you why, please do most people, and this is something that it's a. It's a personal mission of mine to fix. You know, I don't know how successful I'm going to be at it, but the American legal system is very much a black box. We don't do a good, good job of teaching people how it works in any meaningful way. We sort of go through, you know, three ring circus judicial branches, and that's kind of it. And no, but so. So most people who are not involved in the legal system in some way do not understand how the legal system actually works. And I'll give you a perfect example. Can either of you tell me what the defense has to prove in a criminal case? [00:20:29] Speaker B: Ooh. Oh, oh, okay. [00:20:32] Speaker A: In criminals fund. So I. Can we can both of us guess and then you explain how we're wrong? [00:20:37] Speaker B: Yes, because I feel like I should know. This bugs. You can go first. [00:20:41] Speaker C: So. Because I do, I do. Eviction defense, foreclosure defense, criminal defense, debt collection defense. Basically my whole practice. For people who aren't familiar with me, I run a name your own price law practice for people who cannot afford traditional attorneys. Illinois is one of 42 states that charges for and means tests the public defender. You know, when you read your Miranda rights. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Jesus fucking Christ. [00:21:02] Speaker C: And I can get into that more in a few minutes, but, yeah, what the hell. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:08] Speaker C: And in the United States, you do not get a public defender of any kind for any kind of civil case. So family cases, if your kids are getting taken away, custody cases, debt collection, if your house is threatened, if you're losing your home through eviction or foreclosure, you don't get. You do not have a right to a lawyer in those cases. So I handle those cases because you don't have a right to a lawyer. And for those people who are denied the public defender because they, quote, unquote, make too much money, I take those cases too. Those are the kinds of cases I handle. So when I am doing a criminal defense case, what is my obligation to prove to a jury or the judge? [00:21:46] Speaker B: If it's a bench trial, My understanding is. Well, isn't the burden like, my understanding is the burden of guilt is on the prosecution, isn't it? Like, you have, like, they have to prove you guilty, you know? You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to prove yourself innocent, is my understanding. That's because you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. So, like, as a defense, I'd say you just have to try to introduce doubt to the jury or the. Or the judge of. Of doubt of guilt. You have to prove doubt of guilt like. Like that. That you can't. You. That it can't be. Basically, you could even just say it can't be proved, you know, beyond, you know, like, you can't prove it completely. So, like, the can't know for sure. That's my guess. [00:22:34] Speaker A: That's circling kind of where I. I would be too, because it's like, you know, we Want to. Like. Like Ella said, it's like, isn't someone presumed innocent to some degree? [00:22:47] Speaker C: So the answer is. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say I feel like it's on the tip of my [00:22:53] Speaker C: tongue, but I have to prove absolutely nothing. [00:22:56] Speaker B: Hey, there. [00:22:58] Speaker A: Is it. [00:22:58] Speaker C: And you and Ella, you were almost right. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Oh. [00:23:04] Speaker C: And the reason I'm a stickler about this is it does make a difference. [00:23:07] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:08] Speaker C: Because we. We don't tell our. We don't tell people how the legal system works, and then we throw them into the. It's a jury duty and say, go be on a jury. In a criminal case, you don't have to prove doubt exists. You do not have to prove anything at all. When the prosecution has a burden of proving something beyond a reasonable doubt, that means that they have to prove that there isn't doubt. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:36] Speaker C: I don't have to prove that there is any. And the reason that matters is there is a very common misconception that in order to win a criminal trial, I, as a defense attorney have to show what actually happened. I. I have won cases at trial presenting no witnesses at all. I have simply established that the state did not prove that their version of events is what happened. [00:24:07] Speaker A: So it's the prosecution. You're didn't. It's like, nope, your story's just wrong, dog. Like, here's how your story is wrong. [00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It just doesn't make sense, your story. [00:24:18] Speaker C: So I'll give you a great example. Earlier this year, I had a trial where I was representing somebody who was charged with some kind of charge related to a trans rights protest. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:31] Speaker C: There was this whole allegation about how client was supposedly disrupting this meeting with inflammatory language about how trans kids matter. Oh, God, yes. Anyway, at. [00:24:48] Speaker B: I'm so inflamed. I'm. I'm inflamed as hell. [00:24:51] Speaker A: I mean, I'm a flamer, but, like. [00:24:53] Speaker B: But that's neither here nor there, honey, is what. We talked about this. [00:24:58] Speaker C: So at the trial, the officer who they called in to testify, he testified that he did not remember exactly what my client said. Oh. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Oh. [00:25:13] Speaker B: That's the end of that. [00:25:14] Speaker A: All right. [00:25:15] Speaker C: I didn't call anybody. I moved all the directed verdict, and I said, you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that my client said anything inflammatory if you don't remember what he said. [00:25:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:29] Speaker B: Just believe me, because I'm a cop, remember? Remember that. That unspoken rule, you know? God. [00:25:36] Speaker C: So, yeah. So I've had. So. So that's what I mean. And the reason that matters is because the. The There is this misconception that the US Legal system operates on some search for substantive truth. It does not. [00:25:53] Speaker B: No, no, no. [00:25:54] Speaker C: U.S. legal system operates on a very complicated set of procedural rules. And when I say very complicated, I mean we have twice as many rules as the United Kingdom, and they have the second most rules in. In the world. Oh, God, there are so many. So. So if you. Let's say you want to be a trial lawyer, you have to know the rules of civil procedure, the rules of criminal procedure, because they're different rules of evidence, which are different from the rules of procedure. The rules of procedure are, here's what you're allowed to file and when you're allowed to file it. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. [00:26:32] Speaker C: Then there's the rules of evidence. That's what you're allowed to present and what you're not. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. [00:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:41] Speaker C: Then there's that each judge has their own, what is called a standing order. That is the rules for their courtroom. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:49] Speaker C: Each particular jurisdiction has their own, what are called local or circuit rules, which are the rules for that courthouse. And then on top of all of that, there are additional rules that come into play for certain types of cases. Rules like jurisdictional rules. And then if you want to appeal at the end of your case, that's a separate set of rules of appellate procedure that get added on. To give you an example, in Illinois, for example, your appeal will not be considered by the Illinois Appellate court if the COVID is not the correct color. [00:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds right. I've worked a little bit in the law office, and yep, that sounds about right. [00:27:35] Speaker C: I'm just the biggest mistake that people who represent themselves make is not not knowing the law. Although, you know, there's sometimes you. You always have somebody who, you know, just looks up. Looks it up on Google, and it's never as simple as it appears on Google. The biggest problem, people just ask Rock. Yeah, I hate that. But the biggest mistake that people make is not knowing how to make those. Not knowing how to make those arguments. Right. Because. So, for example, very common question I get, I tried to go to court, and the judge wouldn't even listen to my evidence. Well, that's because you went to court on a status, and you're not allowed to introduce evidence at a status, and if you try, you can accidentally waive your right to introduce that evidence later. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: So you want anarchists. This is how you get anarchists. Because people are just like, all these rules, fuck me. And then people stop following rules. [00:28:36] Speaker C: My favorite rule of all and I use the word favorite extremely sarcastically. Everyone in the United States is presumed to know the law, including all of the rules of court to the same level as an attorney. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. [00:28:50] Speaker C: Yeah, well, well. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Oh, you know what? Hold on. If we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. That might be giving attorneys way too much credit. [00:28:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, God, no. There's a few that I've been aware of here that have. Oh, yeah, fair enough. No offense here. There's dumb wrestlers, too, you know, by [00:29:09] Speaker C: all means, you may be as offensive to my profession as you would like. [00:29:13] Speaker B: I just compare. I've been comparing you to wrestlers. It doesn't get much worse than that. [00:29:17] Speaker A: So, I mean, I could compare to magic players. We love our rules over there, too. [00:29:23] Speaker C: I mean, here's the problem is that sometimes the rules get ridiculous. [00:29:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:29] Speaker C: And there. And. And the problem. And it's a. It's a. It's a fight I've had been having for a long time. The problem is that it becomes gatekeepy. Some rules I get. I do actually think that there are some rules that make sense. For example, most of what prosecutors say technicalities are. You know, you got him off on a technicality. Everything that's a technicality is not. That's actually really important. [00:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:55] Speaker B: That's just the law like that. [00:29:57] Speaker C: I'll give you a great example. There is O.J. the O.J. simpson trial. O.J. simpson, that verdict was correct. And the reason it was correct is that it was undisputed. Once you actually read the transcripts, that the police tampered with the evidence. And there is certain. And there is in the law, a presumption. The state tampers with the evidence. The defendant should walk. And the reason that exists is once you start excusing certain misconduct, then it doesn't really matter. And you can say, well, but he did it. But the problem is what happens the next time when it's a borderline case and we don't really know or not. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, the precedent that that would set is horrifying. [00:30:44] Speaker C: Or for example, the Bill Cosby case, which is a huge. That's a huge misunderstanding online. Why did he get off? The prosecutor promised him he would not face charges and then use statements against him based on that. So, yes, it was a quote unquote technicality. It was an important one, though. So when you hear technicality, you should think violation of constitutional rights. The bigger problem is when you have procedural rules that are just gatekeepy stuff like your. The color of your appellate brief must Be blue. It doesn't. That I don't care about. Or the judges who still have rules that say women attorneys must wear skirts or, or the rules that say that you have to have your, your, the, the. Your brief has to have this particular font. It has to be a Times New Roman font or a serif font font, depending on that kind of stuff, is just gatekeepy. [00:31:50] Speaker A: That's so frustratingly gatekeepy. Because if you're unaware of, like, that even being a possibility, you won't even know to look into that. Like, getting back to what you were saying about the presumption of everyone having to have like, the, like same knowledge of the legal system. As an attorney, it's like, like, you know, again, if you're just. I'm thinking about like the, the self representation side of everything where it's like, you know, some goofball, like whether or not you want to represent yourself, who's to say? But like, if you don't know to file with a blue cover letter, like, that's. That. That's insane. [00:32:24] Speaker C: That's my personal favorite. You cannot invoke your right to remain silent. By remaining silent, you have to say, you're right to remain silent. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Bye. [00:32:33] Speaker B: That's just fun. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:32:36] Speaker C: But no, there's a very famous case out of Louisiana where a guy asked for a lawyer by saying, I want a lawyer dog. And the Louisiana Supreme Court said that wasn't enough to invoke his right to counsel because he could have been asking for a canine. And then there's another famous case where a guy. [00:32:56] Speaker A: You can't air bud. You can't duke air bud. [00:33:00] Speaker C: Then there was. There's a very famous case where a guy was asked if he wanted a lawyer and he just stayed silent thinking he was invoking his right to silence. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:10] Speaker C: And that state supreme Court said, no, you couldn't use that silence against him because he never said he was invoking his right to remain silent. So now, you know, now those of us who practice in this, we're like, okay, we tell all of our clients, I invoke my rights to silence and counsel and will not answer any questions without my attorney present. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:29] Speaker C: The fact that we have to say I invoke my right to silence. To invoke your right to silence is kind. That's what I mean by unnecessarily gatekeeping. [00:33:40] Speaker B: No, it's not like that. [00:33:41] Speaker C: When you're talking about stuff like dress codes or, or, you know, getting into law school, like, the whole bar exam is. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Oh, I I grew up with someone who ended up going to law school, and we were like friends while he was going through that. And it was. It was insane. I like, just absolutely crazy. The. I watched that guy go through and, and to. So like to see that and imagine thinking the average citizen's gonna have nearly the ability to do that. And, and, and like you said, it's gatekeeping. I can think of a perfect. And it's a kind of great segue to a thing I wanted to talk about too. Before we start heading near the end here, as we're in the back, like third. I. I know me, I'm a yapper. I could go. [00:34:29] Speaker A: I do want to bring up just rules and magic also, because there's one rule that I want to make y' all do. [00:34:34] Speaker B: All right, well, real quick, real quick, before I forget this. Because of the legal cannabis, it's a. I made that joke about that's how you're good anarchist. But the whole thing is, is like all the anarchists I know are organized and have plenty of what you could consider rules. It's just there's a difference between an agreement amongst a people and, And a law, because a law is backed up with violence, where an agreement is backed up with a. Come on, man. You know, like, you know what I mean? He'd just be cool. [00:35:07] Speaker A: And agreements backed up by. You're being a bad hang. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:13] Speaker C: Here's kind of the thing about laws, because what the. The thing that I get. The question I get more often than any other is how can they do that? That's illegal. And I get that question. It has to be three or four times a day. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Someone has to enforce it or it doesn't fucking matter. [00:35:32] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, laws aren't magic. Laws are not magic. And, and at the end of the day, all a law is is a list of punishments. What will happen if you don't do this? If you don't have the blue cover for your appeal brief? Well, the appellate court just won't read it. If you don't divide by the speed limit, you might get a ticket. But that's the thing, you might not. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah, but that brings me to this second half of this thought, because this is, of course, everything is wrestling this played out in the sport of kings, because the. The refs are the maintainer of. Of the rules. And you're talking about gatekeepy, weird, over the top, too many rules that when you look at them, you know, even a little bit in squint, it's like, oh, that's racism. So they're. Oh my God, I can't remember his name now again legal cannabis. But the. The. There's a guy who took over WCW one of the bigger companies in the like 80s into the 90s and he. He decided that you know do doing basically leaving the ground if you. If you climb the turnbuckles and jump off the. The top rope. That's against the rules. Things like that little things where it's like well that seems kind of silly. People have been doing things like that forever. Why until you realize that what's is going on around that is that cruiserweight and luchadors and wrestlers from Japan who do more high flying type stuff are getting a little more traction in the US and you have this old racist who likes all just the cowboys, you know what I mean? That kind of stuff and he wants to keep that stuff. And so it became these and no and what happened is that the p. The whole point of why you're there. The fans hated it. Like they rebelled against them. Dude lost his job because it was silly and it was stupid. Now the other end of that though you have the attitude era in the WWE in the late 90s where everything became extreme. And I love like death match wrestling that but like even that you go into with a gentleman's agreement and there's like understanding of a set precedent that everyone there knows because that's how you maintain any sort of enough of a status quo to make it enjoyable to even watch the show. And what they ended up doing is getting to the point where there's still rules in place but the ref just ignores them. Like a guy shows up and beats the shit out of this dude who's in. He. This guy's not even involved in this fight. And the ref sees it happen and just doesn't call the match because it's good tv, fuck it and just doesn't like it's never talked about and and it became what I would call the wrestling version of Slop. It just in. They had no. There's no emotion to it. You're just doing to do and it means nothing. It's meaningless because it's not backed up with anything. There's nothing behind it. And you know. So like having that opposite end sucks too. Like you have to in order to have an enjoyable time whether it be a society or a wrestling show that you got to be like okay but look, a three counts. A three count. Okay. Come on bro. Like if it's just you two and the third guy shouldn't be Here with a chair. I'm gonna. I'm gonna get mad if he's here with the chair. Come on. Otherwise it falls apart and it's no fun for anyone. Anyways, that's the end of my rant. That. That. That's my thoughts on wrestling in the law. So, bugs, please. Magic. Magic. The gathering law Talk. Please go. [00:39:26] Speaker A: All right. I mean, I just want to drop one kind of famously confusing card into the chat really quick and. Yeah. Through it for two seconds. Because I love this thing. I love showing this card to people. It's dead ringers. [00:39:40] Speaker B: I love that. [00:39:40] Speaker A: 4 and a black sorcery destroy 2. Target non black creatures. Unless either one is a color, the other isn't. They can't be regenerated. [00:39:50] Speaker C: Huh. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Okay, well, I don't. [00:39:53] Speaker A: So magic. So the card that I showed you earlier, he is both a white creature and a blue creature because he has a white pip and a blue pip in his casting cost. Oh, here, actually, actually, while we're on this, just to add to confusion. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Sure, why not? Let's rock. [00:40:13] Speaker A: What color is. What color identity is Golos tireless pilgrim. Well, what's it. What's his casting cost? It's 5. [00:40:22] Speaker B: 5. But they gotta look down. How much of that is a bunch of different things. [00:40:26] Speaker A: It's five colorless. But he has an activated ability of white, blue, black, red, green. So can you just. Can you target him with dead ringers? Because he's a. He is not. He is a black creature. He's not non black. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah, because he's got. Okay, all right, so now you've created a conundrum. I see what your eye bugs. Bugs. I see what your bugs in. [00:40:55] Speaker A: But for the. The more elaborated ruling on dead ringers, I'm just gonna read notes and rules. So this is from 2004. So the colors are checked on the resolution of cast, by which I mean quote, both of the target creatures must be exactly the same color or combination of colors. Being colorless is also okay. If they differ in any way, you can still cast the spell, but it does not do anything on resolution. Wow. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. [00:41:30] Speaker A: Sorry, I look. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Sure, man. The law. Yeah, [00:41:38] Speaker A: the Aristocrats. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Oh, Cheryl, we just did a lot of geeky stuff at you. Are you still here? Have we killed you? [00:41:47] Speaker C: I am absolutely still here. Please do not worry about it. You know, you. You should hear me talk about Star Trek. So. Or. Or [00:41:56] Speaker A: anything related. [00:41:57] Speaker C: Lord of the Rings or. Or wait, Cheryl, did you know that [00:42:00] Speaker A: they're both Lord of the Rings and [00:42:01] Speaker B: Star Trek cards for magic together? Yes, there's everything now. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Want to see one? [00:42:08] Speaker B: Oh, I think I know which one you're gonna do. Go. But yes. [00:42:11] Speaker A: No, no, I'm gonna actually. I'm genuinely gonna play nice. Cheryl, who's your favorite character from lord of the rings? [00:42:18] Speaker C: Oh, goodness. The books or the movies? [00:42:21] Speaker A: Oh, the books. The cards are based on the books. [00:42:24] Speaker B: A woman of taste. [00:42:25] Speaker A: So you can get niche. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Okay, then. Oh, goodness gracious. I. Okay, I'm gonna go with Tom bombadil. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:37] Speaker A: Oh, Tommy bombs. I love Tommy bombs. Check out this decadent. Look at this man. Tom Bombadil is a Wuberg 4. 4 God Bard. [00:42:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. I think we've talked about Tom Bombadil. [00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah, no, he's come up before. No, no, no, he's. No, because, God, we've talked about some [00:43:03] Speaker B: bard on the show Beowulf. That sounds like something we would have bail. [00:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that. Yeah, that probably came up on. [00:43:11] Speaker C: Now, if you ask me about the movie, it would be Eowyn. And I actually have a tattoo of Eowyn's sword with I am no man in elvish, which is both Nikki and trans. [00:43:26] Speaker B: I was gonna say that reeks of gender. I love it. [00:43:32] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I have, like, Okay, I have a whole arm of. Actually an arm and a half of sci fi and fantasy tattoos. I have a Starbucks tattoo on for battlestar galactica. I love that. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Hell, yeah. [00:43:47] Speaker B: So you're open for you. You could be an expert transist for several episodes. Good to know. Kia will keep you in the back pocket. [00:43:55] Speaker C: Okay, so if it has anything to do with sci fi or high fantasy, I am so there. [00:44:03] Speaker A: You know what's crazy about Eowyn is there's three Ao and cards. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Of course there is. Oh, my God, look at them. Oh, folks, I wish this is a visible medium. So you. All right, everyone? Cards. They're so pretty. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, moving forward. If you're listening to everything is wrestling, just have scryfall.com open. [00:44:24] Speaker B: I was gonna say that we should put. You send me. Put it in the notes and just be like, this is so you can have bugs vision. I'll call bugs vision. There you go. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Yeah, give me two seconds. I'll get you that one right now. [00:44:37] Speaker B: But yeah. Oh, look at a. Or the shield. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Look at that. Yeah. Aen Shield maiden. And I forget what, like, frame treatment. That's called, like, scroll frame, I think. Yeah, it's. Oh, my God. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Lovely. Fantastic. [00:44:53] Speaker A: And for good measure, let me find it. Let me find a star Trek for you. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Awesome. And while bugs is doing that, is there Any. As we head to the end here, is there anything else you want to leave the people with, Cheryl, other than learn more about the law? Because that seemed to be where we're getting as. And none of people are educated on this and thus should know more. [00:45:15] Speaker C: So the most important thing people can do, because there is this belief, and it's an incorrect belief, that the average person has no impact on the legal system. The majority of judges in the United States are elected. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:30] Speaker C: And thanks to ballot fatigue, people very rarely vote for them. So most judges in the United States are not only elected, they're running unopposed. They're even in deep blue areas. You have Republican judges running unopposed because people don't vote at the bottom of their ballot. But here is the most important thing I can leave people with. Sandra Day o', Connor, the former Supreme Court justice, said this, and she was actually really correct about this. Most powerful person in the United States is not the President, is not a member of Congress, is not even a Supreme Court justice. The trial judge. Most cases are never appealed. And what a trial judge does is final. And what a trial judge does has way more direct impact on your life than even what the President does. Because, yes, what the President does has impact on all of us. What the Supreme Court does has impact on all of us. But if you are in a courtroom, it's the trial judge who has the right to put you in a cage or kick you out of your house. With very, very rare exceptions, the president can't even do that without getting a trial judge to do it. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah. To do it for him. Yeah. That's what we're learning. [00:46:52] Speaker C: The most powerful person in the country is a trial judge, and we don't pay attention to them. [00:46:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:59] Speaker C: So there are. One of the reasons that this matters is that very quietly, the Trump administration is going after the American Bar Association. And I have my own problems with the aba, and it has a history of RAC racism. And I'm not. We don't have time to get into that. But the reason that that matters here is that the ABA every year issues a series of recommendations about judges and whether or not they're qualified. And then local bar associations do the same thing. And it's not a coincidence that trying to strip ABA accreditation would probably put a stop to that, would end the diversity rules for law schools, would set us back to basically, whoever is the white dude with the most money becomes a judge even more than is already the case. And 70% of judges on the bench in the United States are white men. White CIS men. [00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:47] Speaker C: So the most important thing that every one of your listeners can do is vote in every judicial election. Because local elections, there's usually a judge on the ballot in, even in midterms. There's midterms and presidential elections don't stop at president. If you turn your ballot over, there's probably a judge on the ballot somewhere. And if you don't know how to look up that judge, remember that every single judge there with the bit, with very few exceptions, stuff like juvenile court and the like, most of their proceedings are open to the public and there is usually a bar association that has provided a rating for them online. So if you are not sure about who the judge is that you're voting for, if you are in one of the 30 some odd states where the judges are elected, you can find out information from your local bar association and your state bar association can tell you where to find that information. Make sure you vote in your judicial elections because every time you see somebody, when you see on the news, somebody who is getting overcharged and then convicted for something or they've been, they're getting exonerated after spending a lengthy prison sentence and they should, they should never have served. All of that was because of the decisions of a trial judge. And a lot of trial judges are answerable to all of us if we bother to put in that work. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Yep. Well, I will say that local politics is grabs and that is going to come down the line. That's already on the spreadsheet. No, that's a fantastic thing to tell people. So yes, vote local, be smart, knowledgeable of laws for your own sake, if not your neighbors. And you know how we feel about our neighbors around here. Cheryl, thank you so much for your time. You have been a pleasure to yap with. Do you have anywhere you want to tell people to go to? You know, see your takes? We like to say send you money. If that's your thing, send other people money on your behalf. Whatever floats your boat. [00:50:06] Speaker C: If you're gonna send people money, the Palestine Children's Relief Fund is a great place to send people money. And if you are going to send people money, directly, find black and indigenous trans people in your community and send them money. But if you did want to read my words, I post on threads and bluesky under the handle the Lawyer. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Fantastic. [00:50:27] Speaker C: And I, I, it has been lovely being here and I appreciate you very much. [00:50:31] Speaker B: Oh no, thank you so much. We appreciate you. Bugs. Where can people see your gas leaky thoughts and or send you money? [00:50:40] Speaker A: Oh, you can find me over on Blue Sky. You know, the Bugs matrix handles have said it a lot of times. I'm the only Bugs matrix in existence as far as I know. [00:50:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't imagine all two of you. Okay, wait, no, that might be fun. [00:50:52] Speaker A: Two of them. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Two of them. Two of them might be. [00:50:55] Speaker A: You know. You know the two of them meme where it's just two cats and the text just says two of them. [00:51:00] Speaker B: Yes. But with bugs is yes. Yeah. And I am going to not forget to do this for the first time probably since, like, ever. I'm going to credit the amazing artist who wrote our theme song. The sex theme from everything is wrestling socks. Go check out Socks music@socks edm.bandcamp.com and give it money. Just fantastic work. Also, like, just it's I've had socks has just been the soundtrack of my summer, basically. Like, socks kicks every ass. Go listen to socks. Go find all the places where I exist and do things at GAR. [email protected] is on Blue sky as well. But yeah, they'll send you to my the merch store, the various podcasts, the Wednesday night fake fights where we talk about the dynamite. All these things should be on there. And if they're not, I'm sorry. I'm doing the best I can. Everything so much. But thank you for listening and what Grappy Wednesday. I I like Crappy Wednesday. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Still Crappy Wednesdays, guys. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Happy Wednesday. Sam.